Groups fight to keep foreign fish at bay

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Ken
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Groups fight to keep foreign fish at bay

Postby Ken » Sun May 06, 2012 4:51 am

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120505f1.html

Copied and pasted...

Starting in 2007, with approval from the Tokyo Metropolitan Government, the group began capturing bluegill and black bass — freshwater species indigenous to North America — in the pond to protect its native species and ecosystem.

As of April 21, the group's 23 members had caught a total of 289,101 bluegill and 24,309 bass. Their efforts, though low-key, have been effective in preventing the foreign fish from expanding their numbers — and saving native breeds from extinction.

Nevertheless, the group hasn't been able to effect a major drop in the invaders' population or reverse the decline in indigenous species.

"There are limits to what we can do," Tanaka said. "The reproductive power of black bass and bluegills is high."

Today, Inokashira pond is almost dominated by bluegill and bass. The native species, including the stone "moroko" (a type of carp) and the "toyoshinobori" rhinogobius [a type of goby], are in decline.

In the meantime, Tanaka said that the park's "kaitsuburi" (dabchicks), which depend on the stone moroko as food, are nearly gone.

"A few years ago, there were three breeding pairs of dabchick (in the park). But now only one pair remains," he said of the ducks.

Last fall, the Tokyo Metropolitan Government blocked off a corner of the pond to build a protected space where native fish species can live and hopefully breed. Tanaka said he is eager to see indigenous species flourish again but hasn't been able to confirm an uptick in the population yet.

The metropolitan government also plans to drain the pond to clean the muddy water and to eliminate foreign species. A similar method was used a few times in the moat around the Imperial Palace and had been considered effective in eliminating the two interlopers.

However, Norio Iwami, a professor of environmental microbiology at Meisei University, said it's anyone's guess how long that measure will work.

"By draining the water, we can clearly see what kind of creatures are living in the pond and we can retrieve them. So it would be effective," Iwami said. "But if an Adam and Eve remain, they breed again. If they can't retrieve all the eggs, then I don't know what will happen. We'll have to wait for a year or two to know the result."

***

Interesting read as to anglers' effort vs. success in removing invasive species (in this case bluegill and largemouth bass), and the strong reproductive capability of bluegills and largemouth bass given an ideal environment. If you are seriously concerned about the re-establishment and stability of largemouth bass population in Lake Wilson, check this out. :wink: This is an example of what I've been trying to say all along. Given the ideal environment, bluegills and bass has an absolute high reproduction capability.
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Ahnkochee
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Re: Groups fight to keep foreign fish at bay

Postby Ahnkochee » Sun May 06, 2012 10:37 am

Ken wrote: Given the ideal environment, bluegills and bass has an absolute high reproduction capability.


I don't believe Lake Wilson is an ideal environment for bluegills or bass like the cool waters of Japan which is closer to their native environment on the US mainland especially the northern strain of bass we have here instead of the Florida strain which I believe would prosper here in our warmer waters. If Japan waters were warm enough to have a population of Red Devils I think they would see a decline in their population of both bass and bluegills.
The Tucanares do so well here because our waters reflect their native Amazon habitat much closer then it does for mainland bass. Ho'omaluhia Pond used to have a great Smallmouth bass fishery before the introduction of the Red Devils which has taken over the pond.
The decline of our Pongee (Snakehead) population also coincides with the growth of the Red Devil population which I don't think is coincidence.
In my opinion based on 40+ years of observation and experience I don't think Lake Wilson was ever an ideal environment for the northern strain Largemouth Bass or the Bluegills especially when aggressive warm water predators are thrown into the mix.
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Re: Groups fight to keep foreign fish at bay

Postby Ken » Sun May 06, 2012 12:11 pm

Ahnkochee wrote:
Ken wrote: Given the ideal environment, bluegills and bass has an absolute high reproduction capability.


I don't believe Lake Wilson is an ideal environment for bluegills or bass like the cool waters of Japan which is closer to their native environment on the US mainland especially the northern strain of bass we have here instead of the Florida strain which I believe would prosper here in our warmer waters. If Japan waters were warm enough to have a population of Red Devils I think they would see a decline in their population of both bass and bluegills.
The Tucanares do so well here because our waters reflect their native Amazon habitat much closer then it does for mainland bass. Ho'omaluhia Pond used to have a great Smallmouth bass fishery before the introduction of the Red Devils which has taken over the pond.
The decline of our Pongee (Snakehead) population also coincides with the growth of the Red Devil population which I don't think is coincidence.
In my opinion based on 40+ years of observation and experience I don't think Lake Wilson was ever an ideal environment for the northern strain Largemouth Bass or the Bluegills especially when aggressive warm water predators are thrown into the mix.


I entirely agree, Ahnko.

As I've said before, Lake Wilson is currently not set up as a lake that would support largemouth or bluegills. The steep shorelines, the bottom type and the lack of weeds just cannot give these fish the potential to do well.

If anglers really do wish to establish a population of both in the lake, it has to start with engineering the habitat first and foremost. As this example shows, if the habitat is there, it does not take much for both species to become established.

As for smallmouth bass, I don't know how deep Ho'omaluhia is. Smallmouth needs cool waters, even more so than largemouth bass. In Canada, smallmouth bass are usually found depper than largemouth bass even if they are found in the same bay or river. Smallmouths may survive OK if the water is warmer with no other significant stressors. But as you said, the explosion of red devil at Ho'omaluhia increase competition for food and decrease spawning success (nest robbing) so the addition of red devils cannot encourage a good smallmouth population.

The Northern Snakehead also live in cooler waters with much more weed habitat. That is why they thrive in the Potomac at the moment. Again, the current environment in Lake Wilson is not prime for their survival. So despite how aggressive and non-selective their diet may be, they just cannot cope with less than ideal habitat. Now, if say you introduce Giant Snakehead or Striped Snakehead which thrives in Southeast Asia with hot and dry low water season and then a warm and wet monsoon flooding season, it could be a different scenario.

The reason why red devils can survive so well is because the habitat is right, the water condition is right, and there is a lack of sufficient predators to keep them in check. Without the right conditions for growth and reproduction, they cannot establish a booming population.

Peacock bass can survive just as well since in their natural Amazonian habitat, they do have to content with fluctuating water level, competition with countless cichlids species and spawning pressure from these cichlids. They have evolved habits that can deal with nest robbers (note how BOTH parents guards the nest...as opposed to largemouth bass where ONLY THE MALE guard the nest...two big super aggressive parents are better than one moderately aggressive parent). In additon, peacock bass' natural diet includes cichlid. That is why Florida introduced the butterfly peacock to keep invasive cichlids in check.

If you want largemouth bass, get the Corp of Engineers into Lake Wilson and create a productive habitat...otherwise, as this article demonstrated, there is nothing you can do trying to remove invasive species when the environment is prime for their propagation. It doesn't matter if they are Asian carp, largemouth bass or Red Devils.

You just can't compare to the Lake Wilson of the past since weed growth was much more significant in the past...and vegetation cover helps to keep the lake at a moderate level (think about the shade that a tree provide!).
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Postby Ca_Bass » Sun May 06, 2012 3:51 pm

From what I understand the red devil population increase coincided with the crwfish decrease. In my opinion the that is probably the largest affect the red devils had on the largemouth.

Largemouth bass do best in water that is about 60 to 78 degrees. I believe that is their prime temperature for growing. Anything above that their metabolisms are too high and anything below well to low to grow.

From what I've read about the difference between northern and florida bass is it is more bassed on their lifespan. Also, florida generally has a long growing season. The water temps of wilson are ideal for largemouth. To say they get to warm just doesn't make any sense. In texas the water temp will be up to the mid 90's in the summer. I forget where I found it, but I have a chart of the optimum temperatures for the most popular north american game fish.

The majority of the big bass in the US are in the southwest to south east states thay have considerably warmer temperatures.

Hawaii has the perfect climate for bass to thrive. Wilson on the otherhand does need some sort of aquatic vegitation. However, most states have seasons, and the colder winters even the mild winters of states in the south drop low enough to kill off a lot of the vegitatiion. Lake wilson would be overgrwon if they had a a plant like hydrilla or something because there would be no winter die off.

Another issue that wilson has is there are too many predators and not enough prey. Its like having every species of big cat hunting the same small area. Eventually natural selection will take effect.

Largemouth primarily feed on crawfish. Tucs generally don't. Previous to the red devils those two didn't really compete with each other for food. Now that there are no crwdads in wilson (or very few) the bass compete directly with tucs for food..in addition to the red devils, jaguar chiclids, oscars and I'm sure there are plenty more. It's like having every species of big cat hunting the same small heard of gazzel.
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Postby Ahnkochee » Sun May 06, 2012 4:36 pm

I've been fishing Lake Wilson since the early 70s and I have not seen any change in the shoreline vegetation habitat (exception being the salvinia explosion from a few years back) yet the fishing was better back then even when you consider back then you could take home bass for consumption. Water fluctuations were also much more common since the lake waters were regularly used for irrigation of the sugar cane & pineapple fields which doesn't happen today. There were even gillnetters back then but the bass were still able to hold their own more so than today in my experience. Neither lake Wilson nor Ho'omaluhia are ideal bass habitats BUT if they have little or no competition they will still increase until a more aggressive competition is introduced. Whether the Red Devil compete for food or prey on the young it is my observation from several decades experience that they have had a great negative impact on the bass population of both waters. They may not be the only negative factor but they certainly are a large one.
I believe the Florida strain LM Bass would do much better in our warm waters than the current variety. That was the state's argument against importing them.
The vast majority of bass I have taken from Lake Wilson were in shad imitations like Ratl-Traps, Rapala Minnows, Shad -Raps, Etc. with a few on Texas Rigged worms. When I fished rubber skirt jigs with a pork frog (jig & pig) I caught more Tucanare than bass. When I fished crawdads I mostly caught Channel Cats. My last large LM Bass was caught on a live molly from my backyard. Maybe our bass have adapted to different prey from their mainland brethren.
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Postby Ken » Sun May 06, 2012 6:32 pm

Hey, let's go back to 2011 discussion and see what eveyone said was the issue before you shoot the messenger...

http://www.hawaiibassfishing.com/forum/ ... f1b768e11f

More than a few of you pointed out that California grass likley does not add to the oxygen levels of the lake. Although the grass does provide cover, that covers cannot be consistently used with fluctuating water level.

Yes, red devils are creating intense competition, but a lack of cover for hunting and spawning, plus hypoxic lake bottom does not help largemouth to thrive.

The differences between a lot of California and Texas big bass lakes are that...

1) They are deep and offers cool water refuge to bass in hot conditions. Don't all the bass pros teach us to look for bass in deeper structures during mid day heat?

2) These big bass lakes have a very healthy vegetation growth beneath the water. This allows oxygenated deep water habitat to exist.

3) These lakes have ample and diverse forage base (frogs, crawfish, minnows, sunfish, trout in some lakes...etc). Lake Wilson is simply lacking this diversity.

4) Yes, these lakes lack Red Devils...but these lakes also have striped bass in come cases, muskies, or big catfish. I do get it that red devils significantly compete with juvenile bass for forage and that is a big contributing factor. I never denied it.

Ahnko, do you remember the lake having any submerged vegetation before water hyacinth or S. molesta investation? Maybe I'm reading the wrong sources, but I remember reading that both water hyacinth and then S. molesta killed off a lot of the submerged vegetation by blocking out the sunlight. It's been a long time since I've read it...and I'm trying to find those articles now.
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Postby Ahnkochee » Sun May 06, 2012 8:50 pm

Ken wrote:Ahnko, do you remember the lake having any submerged vegetation before water hyacinth or S. molesta investation? Maybe I'm reading the wrong sources, but I remember reading that both water hyacinth and then S. molesta killed off a lot of the submerged vegetation by blocking out the sunlight. It's been a long time since I've read it...and I'm trying to find those articles now.


Besides algal growth at the headwaters that feed the lake at both ends of the lake (north & south forks) which has always been consistent I don't ever recall any other aquatic vegetation in noticeable quantities in the water in the past. We always fished the edges of the California grass when the water was high enough. Most of the time the water was below the grass. I don't recall any change in habitat from the early 70s as far as cover. It looks pretty much the same except for the lack of Pongee, and the presence of Red Devils, other cichlids, and Needlefish. Since the instigation of C&R rules I do see a nice increase in Tucanare but not LG Bass. The headwaters use to be my favorite spot for Smallmouth but other cichlid species have largely replaced the smallmouths there too.
I don't believe the habitat has noticeably changed since I first started fish there except for the countless burrows dung into the bank by the also invasive Pleco Catfish.
The state even acknowledges the negative impact of introduced fish species to the lake:
other top level predators (golden cichlids, red devils) originating from
releases by aquarium enthusiasts have decimated the natural production of
young of one of the most popular fishes, largemouth bass, sought by anglers;

http://www.state.hi.us/dlnr/pdf/lakewilson.pdf

Like I said in my my original post this mediocre bass habitat has only been made worse for them by the introduction of Red Devils and other species of competing fish.
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Postby roadwarriorsvt » Mon May 07, 2012 9:00 am

If anglers really do wish to establish a population of both in the lake, it has to start with engineering the habitat first and foremost. As this example shows, if the habitat is there, it does not take much for both species to become established.


This is so very true! We've taken steps to start with this variable already!
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Postby Ca_Bass » Mon May 07, 2012 11:00 am

Don't get me wrong I totally agree that aquatic veg would be a huge benifit for numerous reasons.

In actuality, lake wilson is a pretty good fishery for both tucs and bass. Most lakes throught the US do not have every key factor to being a perfect fishery. There is always going to be something "out of balance" as there are too many variations in weather.

From about 2006 until about 2010 I had quite a few 50+ tuc days all on artificials. I think towards the end of 2010 or so wilson was SUPER LOW for almost a year, the bass population started to spike and the large numbers of schooling tucs dropped. My guess for this is the bass were able to spawn without being harrased by tucs and other chiclids or the steady wzter level helped. Most of the largemouth I have caught at wilson were stationed a few feet deeper than the tucs. Whether that is because of territorial "dsiputes" between the two or different temperature, o2, ph preferences, I don't know. But I don't think tucs and bass like to "hang out" much together.

The Big O, lake okechobee(sp) has an average depth of 8ft! It is often called the bass factory. It also has quite a few of the lagest 4 day sacks weighed in on the FLW and BASS tours. So I don't think lake of depth is an issue. I fished a lake in texas called oak creek probably 10 times over the span of 2 months. It didn't get any deeper than 32ft. In those approximate 10 trips I managed to catch 3 5lbers and 5 4lbers and plenty of bass in the 2 to 3lb range. It actually isn't a huge lake either. I really don't think the lack of depth has anything to do with the lakes largemouth population or health.

As far as stippers competing with bass in other US lakesgoes....they do, and actually have ruined trophy bass lakes such as Lake Castaic. They didn't actually ruin the lake, but the chances of catching truly large bass which the lake was famous for is much less. Bass, strippers and catfish are able to co exist mainly due to the fact they do not inhabit the same structures the majority of the year. I can't speak for muskie or pike as I'm not overly familiar with those species. Lake casitas which is near Castaic at one point had 8 of the top 10 largest bass ever caught. But then......in about 2006 the state stopped stocking the rainbow trout. The rainbows were the primary food source of the larger bass. There are still plenty of 9 and 10lb bass caught but fish that weighed in teens used to be caught on a regular basis. Now they are very rare.

All it takes is a slight change to have large effects on a fishery. Weather it's reducing red devil populations, having aquatic veg, increased areation. They all could have large effects.

I think the cycles that wilson goes through are amplified because of it's smaller size.
Last edited by Ca_Bass on Mon May 07, 2012 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ahnkochee
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Postby Ahnkochee » Mon May 07, 2012 12:19 pm

The County needs to stop dumping sewage into the lake too. :roll:
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Postby Ca_Bass » Mon May 07, 2012 1:32 pm

Sewage mixing with water is usually never good :)
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Postby Ahnkochee » Mon May 07, 2012 6:22 pm

In the states own words:
The city's Wahiawa Wastewater Treatment plant discharges approximately 2 million gallons of treated effluent into the reservoir each day. This discharge is nutrient rich and vegetation blooms can lead to fish kills. Currently the fishery at Lake Wilson is dying a slow death.
http://www.pacrimrcd.org/Files/Wahiawa% ... roject.pdf
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Postby Stan Wright » Mon May 07, 2012 7:50 pm

:twisted:
Ahnkochee,
I wonder if peacock bass could survive in your back yard?
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Postby Ahnkochee » Mon May 07, 2012 9:03 pm

Stan Wright wrote::twisted:
Ahnkochee,
I wonder if peacock bass could survive in your back yard?


How much salt can they take?
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Postby BASSTRACKER » Tue May 08, 2012 8:00 pm

the state has always discharged sewage into the lake. as a matter pf f act before they moved the pipe underwater that point and the bays around the discharge were some of the best fishing on the lake. and the grass we have is an emergent type, not california grass. i haven't been able to find the genus but its totally different when you hold them side by side. it can grow in several feet of water but not wholly submerged. hence the seedbeds expand when the lake level drops and moves back when it rises, with a period in between of lots of underwater matts. the fluctuation actually helped keep the grass beds healthy, and even that last drawdown really helped em come back in some areas.


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